What Democrats Think Went Wrong
"A political autopsy. A focus group. A return to Herndon family hospitality.
Listen to The Run-Up: What Democrats Think Went Wrong
A post-election autopsy from close to home.transcript
A post-election autopsy from close to home.
This transcript was created using speech recognition software. While it has been reviewed by human transcribers, it may contain errors. Please review the episode audio before quoting from this transcript and email transcripts@nytimes.com with any questions.
[UPBEAT MUSIC]
- astead herndon
Two years ago, as we set out to cover the long run up to this election and the prospect of Donald Trump’s third run for the White House, we actually started with an autopsy from 2013, and the set of political assumptions that led to Donald Trump’s first win.
Back then, President Barack Obama and Vice President Joe Biden had just been overwhelmingly re-elected. The Republican Party was in disarray. And the Republican National Committee had ordered a kind of investigation, an autopsy into what had happened.
And what you can see in the conclusions are the political assumptions at that time, mainly, this idea of demographic destiny, the belief that the country’s increased racial diversity was transforming the political landscape. That diversity, both parties thought, would largely benefit Democrats. And to survive, the Republicans concluded they would need to become more racially inclusive and less anti-immigration.
Of course, what we know now was that this was only half right. America’s increased diversity has transformed the political landscape, just not in the way people expected. Now it’s Democrats, not Republicans, who are the ones in disarray, and have been left reeling by the emergence of an increasingly multiracial coalition which rejected the argument that Trump was a threat to the country, and chose to elect him again.
Already, the unexpected result has inspired Democrats to conduct an autopsy of their own, with elected officials, activists, pollsters, and donors all weighing in.
But if I’ve learned anything from the story of that GOP autopsy or even our work over the last two years, it’s that the insiders don’t always have the answers. And in fact, not hearing the voices of everyday Americans is part of what got them here in the first place.
[CHATTER]
So today, to wrap up our reporting on this election, I wanted to go back to one specific group of voters for their diagnosis.
- speaker 1
I was wondering if you were even going to make it.
- speaker 2
You and me both.
- astead herndon
Plus, I love an excuse to go home.
- speaker 1
Hey, son.
- astead herndon
How are you, Mom?
- speaker 1
Good to see you.
- astead herndon
From “The New York Times” in the Chicago suburbs, I’m Astead Herndon. And this is “The Run-Up“.
- speaker 3
Hey, how are you? It’s great to see you. How’s it going? We didn’t get you nervous, did we?
- astead herndon
Thanksgiving has always been my favorite holiday. And last year might have been my favorite Thanksgiving of all time because if you remember, that’s when I convened a group of family, friends, people I knew from growing up, or from my father’s church in suburban Chicago.
We conducted a focus group about the election, and specifically, the question of Black people’s changing relationship to the Democratic party. We talked about President Biden, Vice President Harris, and polls showing that Donald Trump might be growing his support with Black men.
- speaker 4
Let us pray. Lord, we thank you and praise you for this day. This is the day that you have made. And we will rejoice and be glad in it. Thank you —
- astead herndon
This year, when I gathered the same group of people back at my parents’ house, I had a slightly different mission, based on the election results and the moment of soul searching that’s currently happening among Democrats.
- speaker 4
We’re praying for our nation, Lord God. Our nation needs your help. And we ask for your insight, for your power, for your mercy, to heal the divide, Lord God. Oh, Lord, you see the transitions. You know. And the future is in your hand. But we’re trusting you to give us wisdom and understanding. Bless the —
- astead herndon
This is a group of people who represent the base of the Democratic Party, multi-generational Black voters, middle and working class. In my mind, these are some of the people who can best explain why the party’s message didn’t land in 2024, considering that when we met last year, many of them expressed resentment and frustration towards the Democratic establishment, which they worried was putting the Party on the path to lose.
- speaker 4
Hallelujah. Amen.
- family
Amen.
- astead herndon
So we all got some food, cornbread, catfish, my sister’s 13 different desserts —
- astead herndon
OK, well, I hope you all are well fed and have made your way to Angelica’s dessert table.
- speaker 4
Amen.
- astead herndon
I was telling everyone — Angelica, a couple of weeks ago, told me she was not even baking.
- speaker 1
That’s what she said.
- astead herndon
She said she was not even going to bake. And guess who believed her?
- speaker 1
Nobody.
- astead herndon
Nobody. [LAUGHS]
Not a single person believed her.
- astead herndon
— and sat in the living room to embark on this political autopsy together.
- astead herndon
Does anyone want to start us off right now and say why they think — why do they think Donald Trump won?
- speaker 1
I don’t think they were ready for a female, whether she was Black or white. I just don’t think we’re ready, the country is ready for that.
- astead herndon
So we’ll put sexism?
- speaker 5
Yeah.
- astead herndon
Reason number one —
- speaker 6
I would say time. One person had four years. Another person had a hundred days. So I think that played into the part because certain states, you might have to put a hard hat on, talk to unions, actually let them know who you are and what you stand for. I think that’s one reason. It was time. And another reason is that she did not separate herself from Joe Biden. So what Joe Biden was doing wrong, she didn’t take a step apart from it. She kind of just didn’t really make her own stamp on her own things she was running on.
- speaker 4
Yeah, and I think that’s major, because she wasn’t a change agent. She was defending the status quo. And everyone was frustrated with the prices, with immigration, with this and that. So they just tied that all to her. And she would have had to distinctly stand with a new message. And so there was no enthusiasm towards her because she was defeated.
- astead herndon
I mean, there was a lot of enthusiasm when that switch happened. So what do you think changed from a moment when Democrats were talking about, it’s 2008 all over again?
- speaker 4
Well, enthusiasm, yes. But when I look at Obama, when he ran, and just how it really spread, not just among African-Americans, but throughout the entire country, I didn’t see that with Kamala. I thought that there was a support from African-Americans, overall. But Latino individuals, men, it seemed like they were drawn to Trump and the way he carries himself.
- speaker 7
I would say the number-one thing I think that matters in most elections is popularity. I think Trump’s been running for president for about 30 years in America. And just, we get caught up in a lot of little city bubbles and establishment bubbles. And we think that everybody watches the news, everybody watches the news station you watch. But in most of the country, I don’t think a lot of people even know who Kamala Harris is, really. I mean, just literally, in general, if you go to Albuquerque, New Mexico, to the train yard, and you show a picture of this woman, and you say, who is this? They’re going to be like, I don’t know. You show Trump 90 percent of the country, whether it’s from “Home Alone” movies or commercials or being brought out by your favorite celebrity — you know what I’m saying? He’s just more popular, at the end of the day.
- speaker 8
I don’t think it has to do with anything like that. Kamala Harris is the main thing and just —
Hold on. Kamala Harris is an example of what everybody is tired of. She represents government waste. And I think that’s the biggest thing that Donald Trump ran on. Why are you taking my money and giving it away? It’s one thing if you use money to defend the country, to save American people. But now we’re just giving money away. And people are starving. People are being taxed to death. And you’re one of those people that I see all the time, oh, let’s waste money on this.
- astead herndon
Mm-hmm. OK. Why?
- speaker 1
I mean, the reason he’s in is because people want him to give money away. So Trump is in office for money and immigration. Those are two issues. People felt like the two topics that they really wanted to deal with were our money, so whether it’s white men and what our retirement is going to look like, or whether it is the Venezuelans on our corner and who’s going to put them out, those are two of the main reasons I believe he’s in office. And then also, that really didn’t — unfortunately, that surpassed racism, ignorance, disrespect. And all that could be put to the side. What about my money?
- astead herndon
Well, a couple of — four years ago, Democrats weren’t talking like there was a big problem with immigration. Donald Trump was. But it’s not as if literally, Democrats were. I guess even hearing you say that makes me ask a different question. Was he right about some of those problems?
- speaker 9
Well, I think with them directly sending immigrants to Chicago, we now have a different — at least I have a different understanding of it, just because I know so many people who the immigrants would be at the police station, and their homes are right on the same block. And they weren’t able to sleep at night because they would be having fireworks go off through the whole night.
I remember Brandon Johnson and Pritzker asking for Biden to help us during that time. And it didn’t really seem like he was doing anything. And so I think a lot of people were frustrated with his lack of response to helping us, specifically in Chicago.
- speaker 10
Yeah, I say that Trump tapped into a thread of disgruntled, dissatisfied, angry people. And he understood that there was that level of dissatisfaction, and people being disgruntled with how government was being run, et cetera.
And then, I come from a civil rights era. And I think that he was the champion, in many minds, of whiteness. And I think that, preserving that, was important to a broad representation of that dissatisfaction. And he represented that I will be the champion for that.
- speaker 11
Along with that, I think that it wasn’t so much that they wanted Trump. They didn’t want her. And with the people that voted for him previously, and didn’t vote for him previously, they voted for him this time. So people just came out of the rural areas, and some are everywhere, to make sure that Black woman would not win. If white Hillary didn’t win, definitely, they was not going to let the Black woman win. That’s my perspective.
- astead herndon
Well, were you all — if that was true, then, were you expecting her to lose on Tuesday?
- speaker 6
I wasn’t.
- speaker 11
I wasn’t.
- speaker 6
I’m saying, she was a Black woman on Monday. But then you’re like, did y’all think she was going to lose?
[OVERLAPPING SPEECH]
- speaker 10
We’re talking about the masses.
- speaker 9
I was not expecting her to do the worst.
- speaker 12
The first day he announced, I said, no, it’s not going to happen. Then y’all convinced me, and then y’all let me down.
- speaker 4
Very hopeful.
- astead herndon
One second, one second. I would love to hear Black women specifically, speak on seeing her run, and what you thought when the result was coming in. Go ahead.
- speaker 12
Oh, I was going to say — I will be honest. When they first announced that she was now the nominee, me and a lot of people were like, oh, this is going to be — it’s no way. Is this the best option? This is the state of America. But then the next day when everybody was like, oh, we had these calls, we raised all this money, then I was really starting to think, OK, this can happen.
And then when she lost, I took it a little personal because I actually related to her more than Hillary, because she went to an HBCU like me. I’m an attorney. To see her up there, I was like, oh, OK, things are changing. And I felt like — after, I was like, oh, I was being a little naive. That’s what it felt like to me because I should have known. [LAUGHS]
- astead herndon
Did it feel more personal than 2016, since it was a Black woman, a woman of color, in the —
- speaker 13
Yeah, to me it did.
- speaker 14
Definitely, it was hard.
- speaker 15
No, I was just going to — yeah, I think it did feel a little more personal than 2016. Relating to everything that Chanel just said, I felt like, at first, I was like, this can’t happen. But then as time went on, I got more hopeful. And I felt even special, voting and pressing that button to vote for Harris as the first potential Black woman for president. But I think ultimately, after seeing the results, I’m not completely surprised. And I feel like, why did I let myself get hopeful?
- speaker 1
For me, 2016 stung me more because I really felt then, how could anyone vote for him? That was my rationale, like —
- astead herndon
You don’t feel that now?
- speaker 1
I feel it now, but they already tricked me. And I was already educated that that’s possible, then. And so this time, I remember feeling, back then, like I was just walking in a maze. This time it was almost — I was hopeful because the money was being raised and the polls. I didn’t trust the polls. I don’t trust polls at all.
- speaker 10
No, better not trust the polls.
- speaker 1
No more.
- speaker 10
No, cannot trust —
- speaker 1
No more. I think people are lying — I think they’re inflating the polls.
- speaker 10
That’s right.
- speaker 1
So I wasn’t trying to hang my hat on the polls, at all. But I was hoping that because of the money that was being raised and the general excitement around it, that it was going to be a possibility. And when the results were so bad — they were so bad.
[OVERLAPPING SPEECH]
They were so bad.
- astead herndon
So wait. I’m of the personal opinion that you can’t look at the scope of that results and say it’s just racism, sexism.
- speaker 7
I think that before we get to the sexism and the racism, I think that we should really hold the Democratic Party accountable. I was afraid. I had feared when Biden said he was going to run again, if I’m going to be real. I didn’t have any hope until Vice President Harris jumped in. And honestly, they didn’t put her in the position.
So I think that yes, there are a lot of reasons why. But if we’re looking at the next election, who’s next? Who’s the next leader of this party? And I just think that everyone’s got — we’ve got to look in the mirror.
- astead herndon
I’m surprised that y’all are making more excuses than I thought.
This was not an election where no one showed up. There’s partly, a way you see this, where Donald Trump persuaded more people. And I’m asking, why is that? Why? So I guess there’s not — I haven’t heard enough about why we think people were legitimately persuaded. Are they just all ignorant? They’re all ignorant?
- speaker 10
Just as I said, he tapped into something.
And this is my this is my this is my sound like going to spiritual, but wickedness and genius sometimes, can walk together. And he tapped into something, a thread in America. And he tapped into the darker thread of America.
And those that subscribe to those things to protect whatever they might view needs to be protected for their interests, he became the champion for that. And that, for me, is what I saw, why he was effective.
- speaker 8
And to piggyback on Chairman, the reality of it is, the Hispanic votes was a big one, as well. You look at some of the people that came here — and I work with a lot of them — they felt it was unfair that their people came here, second, third generation, and worked hard, and did it legally, and people were being flown and bussed here, and they were getting things that they felt that they shouldn’t get. So it was a fear.
The reality of it is, they went far left. I think the reality of it is, some of the policies care more about, say, the homosexual man than they did the Black man. Those are realities. And so when you say, why it wasn’t there, the base, the Democratic base, has lost some of its standing. We can all around, but the reality of it is, they’ve lost it. They got a little too big for their britches, and they need to go back to the drawing board to try to reach the masses. But that’s the reality.
- astead herndon
That’s really what I’m asking here, is — because I think to the point, to point this back to our exercise of an autopsy, some of that has to require some more inward looking. So I’m not trying to dismiss racism and sexism. I guess I’m just also saying, I remember some of the things that came up last year, people bringing up that they felt that Democrats were talking more about cultural issues, LGBTQ stuff, than money. Right? Y’all said that last year. And so I guess I’m asking for a little more man in the mirror, here.
- speaker 1
As a party as a whole, they didn’t speak to us everyday people and the things that bothered, or the things that we saw and faced every day.
- astead herndon
Like what?
- speaker 1
Like I said, it would be — the immigration is one of them. That was the present, in-your-face issue that I don’t think they really had a solution or thought about or shared one about. Yes, we’re dealing with reproductive rights, but then that falls on the side of women, the lesser pop — not the less — because I don’t believe the lesser, but that issue, they already don’t regard women that much. So that one, they can throw out the window. No one’s really dealing with that.
And then this whole idea of inflation — everything is costing so much. And so we’re all dealing with that. And so if Trump is going to speak to, hey, I’m going to make it, more cost effective for you to live, and then I’m going to get rid of these people on your corner and all these immigrants, and then the Latinos, of course, they consider themselves white.
So they didn’t line up with the people of color. So I’m at the point now, where no, let’s be clear, I am Black and you are brown. So we can’t be a whole population of people of color because ain’t no collectiveness in this.
- astead herndon
This is such a big change though, from 12 years ago, Obama era. At that time, we were talking about this multiracial coalition and all of that stuff. Now you all are saying, you don’t even want to be — you don’t want to be — you don’t want to be linked up.
- speaker 16
We don’t. I’m Black and you are brown.
- speaker 1
You know what, though?
But I really think that part of what Trump issued in was sort of like — and I don’t have the proper word — but almost like a “me” generation. People became self-focused on their own individual need. The Democratic Party historically, has been a big net for everybody, for all people, for all the men — and not men, but I’m just saying for all gender, everybody.
But that net concept is not working now because — and even for example, I was so disappointed with the Arab community in Michigan, that didn’t support Harris. I was just blown away by the fact that they actually supported Trump.
So this whole, even the immigrants and all that, it doesn’t really exist in the same way because people are — right, that collective, it doesn’t exist in the same way. And I think that is causing and will cause the Democratic party to have to re-evaluate because the net is broken. And it’s not holding all of the people that it once did. It’s not.
- astead herndon
The question I have, though, is because in one way, I can see how you could look at Arab voters backing Trump or some Latinos backing Trump and say, this is a sign of their distance from Black people. But you could also say that they are willing to send Democrats a message the way Black people have not. Is there a lesson? Are Black people getting the return of investment of voting for Democrats over and over?
- speaker 15
Definitely.
- astead herndon
Is the system you are voting to preserve serving you?
- speaker 1
No.
- astead herndon
Why?
- speaker 1
It hasn’t ever — really served us fully and completely. I would say it never has. We’ve always had to pick and choose. And now, maybe this new generation doesn’t want to do that. But we’ve always had to juggle and get in and work out and struggle and make our issues known.
And so I don’t think African-American people, Black people, have ever been deceived. We’ve just voted on what that person or that party, their best interest for us. But I don’t think we’ve ever been deceived into thinking that party was going to be our savior.
- astead herndon
And that’s not what I’m asking, though.
[OVERLAPPING SPEECH]
- speaker 14
We’re a pretty small subset of the population. And so I love that you brought up the Civil Rights movement. But there was going to be no way that Black people, by themselves, passed that legislation and passed any of those moments. We had to have a broad coalition, right?
Yet, last week let me know that broad coalition does not exist anymore. But we played into that system. What is going to be our way to play — to get things passed in the future/ That was the pillar of so many of our advancements, the electoral representative system that we have used.
So to your point, this moment, every one of the people of color subsets had a issue. The Middle Eastern folks had Gaza. Women had abortion. I think Black people had a number of other issues. But it was only Black people who said, we’re going to vote for the collective. That is offensive. That is —
- speaker 15
Offensive to who?
- speaker 14
To me, as a Black person —
- speaker 16
Other people did not prioritize the collective.
- speaker 14
Right. And to me, it’s like, well, what has happened since 2016? That movement was fake. That was fake. That was performative work that has not equaled into real conversations about equity. And then you’re going to come to us. And you know what I’ll say? The difference between last year and this year, I just want to apologize to Black men because Black men came and voted. They came out.
- speaker 16
After you were on us last year.
- speaker 14
I was the one. I was the one to blame. I said it. I said it. But I apologized because that was false. But everything I said last year about men was true.
- speaker 16
We accept the apology.
- speaker 14
I apologize to Black men.
[LAUGHS]
- speaker 10
I believe it would have been.
- astead herndon
That leads me to another question. After 2016, there was such an explosion of protest and anger at Trump’s election. We haven’t seen that this time. We have not seen the mass amount of activism. And so one question I have for you all is, why do you think that is? And is there something about this election of Trump that feels different than eight years ago? Why aren’t the streets full?
- speaker 15
I actually think it is like what you said. I think some people in 20 — when was that? When did he win? 2016 — people felt like they were in a maze. They thought they were going to ship all the Black people back to Africa. And I think now people are like, OK, well, I lived it for four years.
And I think people are going about their protests in a different way because unfortunately, on social media, I’ve seen a lot of people, especially Black people saying, well, now I’m just focusing on my community, because they felt abandoned by other people. So that’s their way of protesting, not being in the streets, but they’re saying, oh, I’m not helping the immigrant populations. Or Black women are like, I’m not a feminist as a whole. I’m just focusing on the Black community.
- astead herndon
After the election, we talked to this voter in Michigan who voted for Trump. And one of the things that she was saying was really that she was comfortable with the selfishness of her vote, that she voted because of Donald Trump might get her job back, and that she decided that was going to be more important than anything else. And she owned the idea that, I understand I’m not choosing a collective decision, but this is what matters most to me.
I guess what I hear in this room is, you all don’t see that as how you vote. Or you don’t see that type of lens. You think about the collective in your decision. I guess I’m saying, why?
- speaker 15
I think that’s — well, I can’t speak for everybody. I’m wondering if that is a historical mindset for Black people. I think since we’ve come here — and it may not be the right mindset — but we’ve been taught to not just think about m as a community, but think about others.
- astead herndon
I think about America.
- speaker 15
And I think people are realizing now, maybe that’s a brainwashed mentality because we see other minority groups abandoning that. And they are solely thinking about just what will benefit them, where we said earlier, the Democrat party was supposed to be for all. We may not agree with everything that Kamala or Biden or the Democrats push, but we say, OK, it’s for the better good. It’s for the better collective.
So that’s where we’re going — and we’ve been taught to do that. And I think now, Black people are waking up and saying, well, wait, everybody else isn’t doing that. And we did band together. We had the most numbers. We banded behind Kamala. And our numbers just weren’t enough to put her in, by ourselves, to get her in there.
- astead herndon
There was a lot said this year about how democracy was on the line in this election. Do you think that’s true? And if that is true, what are we talking about then, in terms of going forward? What is the range of possibility, you think, that might be ahead of us?
- speaker 10
I would like to just say, I really think we haven’t seen the final act. There’s more to play out. And I think that — I view that it’s going to get dark. I’m getting signals of that from some of these cabinet picks because I believe Trump is going to do just what he promised he was going to do. And many of the things that we have enjoyed, I think that they’re going to work very hard to remove it. So I say this. We haven’t seen the final act yet.
- astead herndon
The streets aren’t — because people are resigned?
- speaker 1
I don’t think so.
- astead herndon
People are disinterested?
- speaker 4
I think people — they’re selfish. And they voted selfishly. But they also didn’t have a sense of history, in terms of what has taken place in the past and in other countries. Now, as African-Americans, we came here as slaves. We had to deal with Jim Crow laws and lynchings.
We’ve seen America, the horrors of America. Maybe Native Americans, the Japanese who were in those internment camps, those are probably the only three groups that saw the horrors of America, and could understand that someone like Donald Trump will do the wicked things that were written in Project 2025.
And so I believe people think that — they may respond emotionally, as things start to unfold. But I think he’s more prepared now. He probably will shoot people if they protest, unlike during George Floyd. He wanted it to happen, but he didn’t have the people in place.
The people he’s putting in place now are going to do whatever he wants them to do. And I believe that by the time America realizes that democracy is gone, we may not even have a midterm election.
- speaker 6
That’s right.
- speaker 4
OK? Because everything is being dismantled.
[THEME MUSIC]
- astead herndon
These words remind me that even though Democrats’ message on Trump and democracy was ineffective at the polls, that doesn’t mean it wasn’t true. Trump has promised to transform the political system, exact revenge on political opponents, and roll back efforts to address issues like racial diversity and inequality. And if his recent cabinet picks are any tell, he’s dead serious.
In winning, Trump not only defeated Kamala Harris, the Democratic Party, and the political establishment, but the notion of demographic destiny, itself because not only has the country’s growing diversity not led to the predicted Democratic victories, it may be the very reason that Trump has been able to exploit divisions among their base.
The political autopsy continues after the break.
[CHATTER]
After hearing what my friends and family thought went wrong, I gave the group one final assignment as my colleagues, Anna and Elisa, walked around the room with microphones.
- astead herndon
We’re going to pass out a lot of cards. And this time, I want you all to look ahead and say, what would you want from a Democratic candidate in 2028? What would you want them to talk about? What issues do you want them to speak on? What do you —
- astead herndon
Tell the party all the things you wish they knew, going into this election cycle, like what type of candidate are you looking for? What issues should that person prioritize? And what things would you want them to avoid?
- astead herndon
We are making you all the most — the strategist. Just, we’re paying you in desserts and not thousands of dollars. And so we’re going to pass out the cards.
- astead herndon
And almost immediately, it became clear that most everyone was on the same page.
- astead herndon
Policies you think the next — would want the Democratic Party to fight for?
- speaker 4
Immigration.
- speaker 1
Definitely gun laws.
- speaker 17
I would say the economy. I think that was a major thing that the Democratic Party is not really talking about on. And not the economy as far as just the lower and middle class, but the upper class, as well.
- astead herndon
They prioritized the issues they felt Democrats had avoided —
- speaker 7
Well, criminal justice, I was going to say the border.
- speaker 4
Education, health.
- speaker 11
I’m going to do health care and racial inequalities.
- astead herndon
— like education, equity, and criminal justice.
- speaker 11
They should come up with a different word or phrase or terminology to talk about immigration. I just think that the word itself is just polarizing.
- astead herndon
They also talked about issues where they wished the Party had laid out a different message, like on immigration.
- speaker 11
So I’m almost like, I don’t want to talk about immigration anymore. But I do we need to talk about it, but there needs to be some new strategy, going forward, about how we talk about it because it’s really not talked about holistically, at all.
- astead herndon
And when I ask what the party should avoid —
- astead herndon
Is there anything you don’t want them to talk about?
- speaker 6
Transgender stuff.
- speaker 10
Yeah.
- astead herndon
I think sometimes —
- speaker 10
That’s something I put on my card. I think that the Democratic Party may have gone a little too far left on that —
- speaker 7
A little?
- speaker 10
— because basically — and I’m speaking from the point of African-American — basically, we’re more conservative than we are on that other side.
- astead herndon
People wanted less wokeness, which seemed to translate into less focus on LGBTQ issues and particularly, trans rights.
- speaker 11
And I know it hurts — I don’t want to say it hurt, but I feel like we’ve learned this. We can’t talk about the LGBTQ issue anymore.
- speaker 12
I agree.
- astead herndon
Later, the group discuss whether strengthening democracy should be on the agenda.
- speaker 7
The system as a whole, he has turned it upside down. So we need to just — it needs to be blown up and started over because the Republican Party and the Democratic Party, as we know it, is not the same. And so it’s not serving nobody but the individuals that have the money and the wherewithal to deal with what they need to deal with. And so it needs to be changed for the people, by the people.
^SPEAKER 17^” I could be saying, Trump’s about to blow it up anyway. So — ^SPEAKER 1^” But we have to deal with that.
- astead herndon
So the next version of Democrats should be talking about their version of reform because it’s here anyway?
- speaker 17
It’s already —
- speaker 6
It’s here.
- speaker 9
I don’t want them to talk about how democracy is at stake because it’s gone. He already won. So I feel like there’s no need for them to keep talking about it.
- astead herndon
And when it comes to identity —
- astead herndon
Do you want to draw your ideal candidate? Or do you want to draw a candidate you think is best suited to win?
- speaker 1
Because they may not be the same —
- astead herndon
Are those the same thing?
- speaker 6
Best suited wo win. This is only about winning.
- astead herndon
This is only about winning?
- astead herndon
They took a practical approach —
- speaker 6
That was the problem.
- astead herndon
— focused on designing a candidate that people thought could win in 2028.
- speaker 12
I put what I wanted them to look like. And I honestly said a white man because I feel like I want to give us the fairest chance possible. We’ve shown it already. America’s not voting for women. It’s just not — as much as we try, it’s not happening. And I don’t know who could be a candidate if she was a woman, that would sway it, but I just don’t see it being possible.
- astead herndon
To that end, they decided the next Democratic nominee should be male.
- speaker 1
Gender matters in America, unfortunately. It is mind boggling to me. It is disturbing. But I think it matters.
- astead herndon
So the only thing that defeats a Trump-like figure, or this version of the Republican Party, is a white man.
- speaker 4
It’s a white male who’s on fire.
- astead herndon
A lot of people said he should be white.
- speaker 4
That is so sad.
- speaker 10
It is sad. We are at a sad state. We are at a sad state.
- speaker 17
An autopsy? We’re looking at a dead body.
- speaker 10
Yeah we’re at a sad stage.
- speaker 12
It’s a sad time in America.
- astead herndon
But one thing they all agreed on is that whoever it is, they need to be younger.
- speaker 1
Are we going to look at the age?
- speaker 12
35. [OVERLAPPING SPEECH]
- speaker 17
Wait, let me ask you this. When is the retirement age?
- speaker 12
65.
- speaker 17
OK, that’s the cap for us.
- speaker 12
OK, 65 —
- astead herndon
And bio aside, this person should promise substantial reform.
- speaker 17
They just have to be a change agent. They just have to be on fire and aggressive and assertive. I would like to see them be aggressive not passive, ooh.
- astead herndon
“Aggressive” was a big word of the night, as was “change.”
- speaker 17
Like, make me believe you’re standing on truth. You’re not afraid, you’re not a punk. I want to see that confidence.
- speaker 9
I think that this candidate, as we already said, is going to be aggressive. But I think the top priority is going to be really fixing everything that Donald Trump has done. That’s really going to be what is — I think we’re going to have to be dealing with the fallout, and having someone who recognizes the need for the checks and balances within the system and strengthening those checks and balances so that another person, who may be even more radical underneath him, would not be able to go forward.
- astead herndon
The point of running this aggressive, not too old white man was simple, to win. And it sounded like the type of pragmatism that led many Black voters to Joe Biden in the 2020 primary. But this time, more people seem to question the Democratic Party itself, and whether they needed to support a candidate who wouldn’t just rebuild the electoral coalition, but shake it up.
- speaker 15
What if we are trying to get somebody on our team who doesn’t want to be on our team? And that goes back to what we talked about earlier. Once again, the Democrats are always trying to get everybody together. So are we still doing that with this candidate? Or are we going to be more so focused on —
- speaker 1
We have to rebuild the party. He said that we’re trying to rebuild the party.
- speaker 17
But that’s the thing. The party should affect all.
- speaker 1
Yes.
- speaker 17
The party should affect all because in the party, you got millionaires — I mean, billionaires. You got it.
^SPEAKER 9^ That’s what I would say. I would love if the party just came to us and asked us because that hasn’t even happened. So come to the Black people and say, what do you really want? Not Juneteenth or these blue-bead bracelets or anything like that, not these performative moments. But I don’t know if the Democratic Party, since Obama or any other time, have come to Black people, and come on bended knee, kiss the ring, and say, what do you want?
- speaker 15
Do you think the Democratic — do you want a candidate that’s like, I want to tear down the Democratic Party?
- speaker 17
No. Yes.
- speaker 15
We talked about systems and somebody who can work within systems. Do we want somebody like that? Or do we want someone who’s like, we need to start from a blank sheet of paper?
- speaker 17
I think we should deconstruct and then start all over. That’s the only way it’s going to work.
- speaker 10
I’m for a new party.
- speaker 1
I think we’re already at a low point. And so I think we’re already low. So we can build up from here.
- astead herndon
Breakdown or keep Democratic Party?
- speaker 17
I say keep it.
- speaker 12
I say keep it.
- speaker 17
I honestly feel like we should keep what we have. We just got to perfect our candidate. What we have is working. The problem is that we’re not coming to the polls like we should.
- speaker 9
I think the problem, though, that I have is these very people — and of course, this is “the people,” quote, unquote — these very people chose to, as we talked about, give these annointments and appointments, no primary, demanding that Joe stay on. So I don’t know if I’m loving the current Democratic Party because I feel like whoever they may bring is — they haven’t been giving me some good options in the first place.
But I think if they are consistent in bringing the facts to the people, coming consistently in the communities throughout the years, not just on presidential years, then that will give them more clarity and give me more hope. But as of right now, like you said, that they haven’t done that. And it makes me concerned to back them when they’re quote, unquote, “choices for us” as a party has not been really good.
- speaker 17
I went to the Democratic party every night. And I was in there. You felt —
- astead herndon
Advancing?
- speaker 17
The convention, yeah. I went there. And it was a lot of joy fluff, nothing concrete, nothing I can walk away and say, my life is going to be affected for the positive when I leave. It was just a lot of — have you ever been to — for those that go to church? Yeah, that’s all it was. You went to a whole lot of church, a church service that —
[OVERLAPPING SPEECH]
Yeah, no death. All milk. Yeah.
- speaker 15
So do you want a more boring party, do you think?
- speaker 17
No I want a more — no, I want a more strategic agenda — an activist type of — this is what we’re doing, more — OK, we all know everybody don’t like Trump. But he exactly, well, I’m not going to do that, but what I’m going to do. I didn’t hear that. I didn’t hear exactly what you’re going to do. What are you going to do? It was, do you feel the joy? I feel the joy. I don’t want to feel the joy. I want to feel the difference.
- speaker 9
Something about practical things. Go ahead.
- speaker 17
You’re using it also.
[SOFT MUSIC]
- speaker 1
Last year, we tried it. We did it last year. And we’re back again. Thank God for keeping us another year. And we also want to do what the Herndons do on Thanksgiving, which is, we go around and we give a word of thanks, just a word.
- astead herndon
A Herndon Thanksgiving tradition is to go around the table and say what you’re thankful for.
- speaker 1
My one word will be fantastical.
- astead herndon
So the story wouldn’t be complete without the 2024 rendition.
^SPEAKER 5 Blessings.
- speaker 6
Hopeful.
- speaker 1
A favor.
- speaker 11
Strength.
- astead herndon
What people were saying seemed like a good summary of the evening’s mood.
- speaker 7
Peace.
- speaker 17
Thankful.
- speaker 14
Grateful to survive the ups and downs. There were dips. But we came through. We came through this year.
- astead herndon
It was a hard year.
- astead herndon
Fortitude.
- speaker 1
Merciful. Loving.
- astead herndon
But still, many people had hope, and of course, thanks.
- astead herndon
Well, I’m grateful for everyone for being here again. And it’s exciting to see so many of the faces that we saw last year, here. It’s been a big journey for us, over this last couple of years. But our intention has always been to empower everyday Americans and to give voice to people who political systems ignore.
And so I think part of that effort was in to understand who people might vote for But even bigger than that, it is to help people understand each other. And it motivates me to put you all in the spotlight. So thank you for coming. I really appreciate it.
[APPLAUSE]
[SOFT MUSIC]
- astead herndon
When we started reporting on the run up to this election, by looking at that 2013 Republican autopsy, it was because we were encountering a huge amount of voter apathy and disillusionment with the political system. People told us they felt like politics had gotten more and more disconnected from their lives.
And when we dug into the reasons why, we traced some of that back to the faulty political assumptions made by both parties back in 2013 and in more recent years, when the prospect of a Biden-Trump rematch made these feelings even more pronounced, so much so that I think this is part of what Trump seized on to win in 2024, not just the feeling of being left behind or the effects of inflation and immigration, but the sense that our politics is fundamentally broken.
So while Trump may represent a threat to that system as it is, many have decided that’s not all bad because after traveling all across the country and talking to Americans of all political persuasions, I know a lot of them don’t think Washington is working in the first place. But looking back over the past two years, I’m not sure I can blame them.
That’s it for this edition of “The Run-Up.” Thank you so much for listening. It has truly meant the world. You can continue to access previous episodes of “The Run-Up” wherever you get your podcasts, and on “The New York Times” audio app. Plus, our colleagues at Times Audio will continue to cover the incoming Trump administration and all things politics.
The Run Up is reported by me, Astead Herndon, and produced by Elisa Gutierrez, Caitlin O’Keefe, and Anna Foley. It’s edited by Rachel Dry and Lisa Tobin, with original music by Dan Powell. Marion Lozano, Pat McCusker, Diane Wong, Sophia Lanman, and Elisheba Ittoop. It was mixed by Sophia Lanman and fact checked by Caitlin Love.
Special Thanks to Paula Szuchman, Sam Dolnick, Larissa Anderson, David Halbfinger, Elizabeth Davis-Moorer, Maddy Masiello, Mahima Chablani, Jeffrey Miranda, Elizabeth Bristow, Akilah Townsend, the Herndon family, and everyone who spoke to us along the way. Thanks so much, y’all.
A year ago, Astead took “The Run-Up” listeners home for Thanksgiving.
Specifically, he convened a focus group of family and friends to talk about the election and the question of Black people’s changing relationship to the Democratic Party.
This year, he got the group back together for a different mission.
The question was: What happened? What can Democrats learn from their defeat in 2024?
On today’s show: an autopsy conducted not by consultants or elected officials but by committed, everyday Democratic voters. And a farewell.
Akilah Townsend for The New York Times“The truth of the matter is, is that the Republican Party — they do a better job than the Democrats in telling their story.”
Michael Eaddy, pastor of the People's Church of the Harvest in Chicago
Akilah Townsend for The New York Times“I felt special pressing that button to vote for Harris as the first potential Black woman for president. But I think ultimately, after seeing the results, I’m not completely surprised.”
Blair Aikens
Akilah Townsend for The New York Times“I would say prison reform, 100 percent. I would say education. And I would say health care.”
George Beck, discussing the issues he wants Democrats to focus on
“She did not separate herself from Joe Biden. So what Joe Biden was doing wrong, she didn't take a step apart from it.”
Corey Laseter, offering a critique of Kamala Harris's presidential campaign
“I was being a little naive, that's what it kind of felt like to me. Because I should have known. So I kind of took it a little hard.”
Shanell Bowden, center, discussing her reaction to Harris's defeat
“The Run-Up” is hosted by Astead W. Herndon and produced by Elisa Gutierrez, Caitlin O’Keefe and Anna Foley. The show is edited by Rachel Dry and Lisa Tobin. Engineering by Sophia Lanman and original music by Dan Powell, Marion Lozano, Pat McCusker, Diane Wong and Elisheba Ittoop. Fact-checking by Caitlin Love.
Special thanks to Paula Szuchman, Sam Dolnick, Larissa Anderson, David Halbfinger, Elizabeth Davis-Moorer, Mahima Chablani, Jeffrey Miranda, Maddy Masiello, Akilah Townsend and the Herndon family."
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